Nûrlâm –
Black Speech
dialect wiki

User Tools

Site Tools

Trace:
orcish_curse

Differences

This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.

Link to this comparison view

Both sides previous revisionPrevious revision
Next revision		Previous revision
orcish_curse [2019/03/24 01:32] – morgothorcish_curse [2023/09/07 19:38] (current) – external edit 127.0.0.1
Line 1: Line 1:
 ===== Orcish Curse ===== ===== Orcish Curse =====
-Is the phrase from "The Lord Of The Rings. The Two Towers" spoken by some orc of Mordor to express disapproval of Isengard's orcs holding Merry and Pippin captured (Book Three, Chapter III: The Uruk-hai).+Is the phrase from "The Lord Of The Rings. The Two Towers" spoken by some orc of Mordor in //debased// variant of [[Black Speech]] to express disapproval of Isengard's orcs holding Merry and Pippin captured (Book Three, Chapter III: The Uruk-hai).
   Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búb-hosh skai   Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búb-hosh skai
  
-It's translations illustrate how often Tolkien changed his mind during the work.+It's translations illustrate how often Tolkien changed his mind during the work. They are listed hear in order of publication:
  
-  - In the final version of the book (1954 – 1955) the curse was not translated at all, and trilogy's Appendix F says that it is Black Speech in "the more //debased// form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower". +  - In the final version of the book (1954 -- 1955) the curse was not translated at all, and trilogy's Appendix F says that it is Black Speech in "the more //debased// form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower". 
-  - "Vinyar Tengwar" (VT) journal published a draft to Appendix F in issue 26 (1992) with analysis by it's editor Carl F. Hostetter. The translation there was **"Uglúk to the dung-pit with stinking Saruman-filth – pig-guts, gah!"** +  - "Vinyar Tengwar" (VT) journal published a draft to Appendix F in issue 26 (1992) with analysis by it's editor Carl F. Hostetter. The translation there was **"Uglúk to the dung-pit with stinking Saruman-filth -- pig-guts, gah!"** 
-  - Cristopher Tolkien's book "The Peoples of Middle-earth" ("The History Of Middle-Earth", volume 12, 1996; abbreviated as PM) contains older draft with a translation **"Uglúk to the cesspool, sha! the dungfilth; the great Saruman-fool, skai!"**+  - Cristopher Tolkien's book "The Peoples of Middle-earth" ("The History Of Middle-Earth", volume 12, 1996; [[abbreviations|abbreviated]] as PM) contains older draft with a translation **"Uglúk to the cesspool, sha! the dungfilth; the great Saruman-fool, skai!"**
   - "Parma Eldalamberon" (PE) issue 17 (2007) published all phrases from "The Lord Of The Rings" in languages of Middle-Earth with translation and analysis. It translates the phrase as **"Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth. Dung-heap. Skai!"**. It was taken from the draft to the 2nd edition of LOTR (1965) written in the late 1950s (after initial release of the Trilogy in 1955). Therefore this translation could be considered the final version.   - "Parma Eldalamberon" (PE) issue 17 (2007) published all phrases from "The Lord Of The Rings" in languages of Middle-Earth with translation and analysis. It translates the phrase as **"Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth. Dung-heap. Skai!"**. It was taken from the draft to the 2nd edition of LOTR (1965) written in the late 1950s (after initial release of the Trilogy in 1955). Therefore this translation could be considered the final version.
 +  - the same issue of "Parma Eldalamberon" gives some older translations (made between 1st and 2nd editions of LOTR)
  
-The table of word-to-word translations (in order from newer to older: 4-2-3):+The table of word-to-word translations (in order from newer to older):
 ^ Black Speech word ^ English translations ^ Etymology ^ ^ Black Speech word ^ English translations ^ Etymology ^
-| bagronk | torture chamber\\ dung-pit\\ cesspool | //bag// < WAGH (filth) or Noldorin "baul" < ÑGWAL (torment)\\ \\ //ronk// < Quenya "ringwë" (cold pool, lake) < RINGI (cold) | +| bagronk | 4) torture chamber,\\ 5) dungeon, \\ 2) dung-pit,\\ 3) cesspool | //bag// < WAGH (filth) or Noldorin "baul" < ÑGWAL (torment)\\ \\ //ronk// < Quenya "ringwë" (cold pool, lake) < RINGI (cold)\\ or either from Quenya "rondo", Noldorin "rhond", "rhonn" < ROD (cave)| 
-| búb-hosh | dung-heap\\ pig-guts\\ great | | +| búb-hosh | 4 & 5) dung-heap, muck-heap,\\ 2) pig-guts,\\ 3) great | | 
-| glob | filth\\ filth\\ fool | | +| glob | 4 & 2) filth,\\ 5) foul,\\ 3) fool | | 
-| pushdug | stinking\\ stinking\\ dungfilth | //push// possibly from PUS (cessation) but meaning and etymology of English words "cesspool" and "cessation" is different | +| pushdug | 4 & 2)stinking,\\ 5) squalid << filthy,\\ 3) dungfilth | | 
-| sha | with\\ with \\ //(not translatable interjection)// | | +| sha | 2, 4, 5) with,\\ 3) //(not translatable interjection)// | | 
-| skai | //(not translatable interjection)// | |+| skai | //(not translatable interjection of contempt)// | |
 | u | to | | | u | to | |
-| Uglúk | //([[personal_names|orc's name]])// | unknown |+| Uglúk | //([[personal_names|orc's name]])// | |
  
 Different versions make hard to interpret the words "//bagronk//", "//pushdug//" and "//búb-hosh//". Existing dialects prefer the variant from Vinyar Tengwar or use all translations to illustrate quarrels of orcs caused by misunderstanding each other. Different versions make hard to interpret the words "//bagronk//", "//pushdug//" and "//búb-hosh//". Existing dialects prefer the variant from Vinyar Tengwar or use all translations to illustrate quarrels of orcs caused by misunderstanding each other.
Line 28: Line 29:
  
 It's interesting that both translations of "//glob//" occurs in phrase "Saruman is a fool, and It's interesting that both translations of "//glob//" occurs in phrase "Saruman is a fool, and
-a //dirty treacherous fool//" of orc's quarrel in the same chapter. And for "//búb-hosh//" also: "I don't trust +a //dirty treacherous fool//" of orc's quarrel in the same chapter. And for "//búb-hosh//" also: "I don't trust you little //swine//. You've no //guts// outside your own //sties//", however the word "guts" here isn't in literal meaning. Then go more words from the curse: "//Swine// is it? How do you folk like being called //swine// by the __muck-rakers__ of a __dirty__ little __wizard__?" (italics in this sentence are from the book). "//Muck-rakers//" better corresponds to older translations of "//bagronk//", however a newer translation of "//búb-hosh//" is also suitable. However, Nûrlâm's author prefers the earlier translation from Vinyar Tengwar because it has more connections with [[translations:ugluk_and_grishnakh|later conversations]] in "Uruk-hai" chapter. 
-you little //swine//. You've no //guts// outside your own //sties//", however the word "guts" here isn't in literal meaning. Then go more words from the curse: "//Swine// is it? How do you folk like being called //swine// by the __muck-rakers__ of a __dirty__ little __wizard__?" (italics in this sentence are from the book). "//Muck-rakers//" better corresponds to older translations of "//bagronk//", however a newer translation of "//búb-hosh//" is also suitable.+ 
 +This phrase is also [[syntax_impersonal|impersonal]], moreover it has no verb too! "Uglúk" here is direct object and "u bagronk" is indirect object. However with less strict approach one may say that preposition "u" took verbal meaning "go to" (and that is probably why it was used standalone), then "Uglúk" is subject.
orcish_curse.1553380340.txt.gz · Last modified: 2023/09/07 14:49 (external edit)
Except where otherwise noted, content on this wiki is licensed under the following license: CC Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 4.0 International
CC Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 4.0 International Powered by PHP Valid HTML5 Valid CSS Driven by DokuWiki