1 Topic by lugrekh

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Topic: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

I'm working on adding verb parsing to my dictionary and see on Lesson XIII – Suffix Order and Indirect Objects there is a type 6 suffix listed as "Completeness" with two suffixes -ûk and -âzh. I don't remember seeing these two in the past.

I looked through the other lessons, and besides the list of suffixes having the following two entries, I don't see an explanation of how these effect a verb (maybe I missed them in a lesson somewhere):

-âzh    partially, incompletely UNF
-ûk    all, completely, collective plural TK [thrakatulûk = to bring them all]

The example word from Tolkien makes sense in that context, but what if we expand them to a simple, none infinitive, sentence:

irz-izg = I run
irzâzh-izg = I partially run?
irzûk-izg = I completely run?

Do we think those last two are valid, or are these only used with a plural object to mean "some of X" and "all of X"?

grushulâzh-izg - I hit some of them
grushulûk-izg - I hit all of them

To see the verb parsing in action, check out https://redhandorcs.org/search?w=thraka … gu&d=0. This sentence is ungrammatical, but it does demonstrate all the suffixes in one go big_smile

If you have a chance, try other verb conjugations with a variety of suffixes and let me know the outcome. I'm going to start working on noun parsing next.

2 Reply by Un4givenOrc

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

-âzh suffix is my invention, it roughly corresponds to English continuous (progressive) tenses and more closely to one of meanings of Russian prefix "pri-" ("otkryl dver" = "opened a door", vs. "priotrkryl dver" = "opened a door just a little"). And -ûk is like Perfect.
They both may be written separately from the verb as usual adverbs, their suffixation is completely optional.

irzâzh-izg = I partially run?

I run a little

irzûk-izg = I completely run?

I've finished running

Yes, there is a confusion when object pronoun joins the verb. In Ring-Verse this doesn't change the overall meaning.

3 Reply by Un4givenOrc

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

Also I recommend not to implement my new participle suffixes like "-ufa" or "-ugz". Older texts do not use them, and my new dialect will have different ones.

4 Reply by lugrekh

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

Un4givenOrc wrote:

-âzh suffix is my invention, it roughly corresponds to English continuous (progressive) tenses and more closely to one of meanings of Russian prefix "pri-" ("otkryl dver" = "opened a door", vs. "priotrkryl dver" = "opened a door just a little"). And -ûk is like Perfect.
They both may be written separately from the verb as usual adverbs, their suffixation is completely optional.

irzâzh-izg = I partially run?

I run a little

irzûk-izg = I completely run?

I've finished running

Yes, there is a confusion when object pronoun joins the verb. In Ring-Verse this doesn't change the overall meaning.

Okay, so these are more like aspect than tense then and describe the status of the action described by the verb. Aspect is something that English doesn't have, but I'm familiar to it from some other languages I've studied.

If they are used as adverbs, the system should already find them. I'm mainly interested in the suffixes right now. I guess that's how Sauron would use the language more so than how Orcs would use it.

I haven't included the suffixes -ufa or -ugz. I don't think they were on the page that describes the different types/order of suffixes.

5 Reply by Un4givenOrc

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

lugrekh wrote:

Okay, so these are more like aspect than tense

Yes, I just avoided this term because it's not taught in schools.

lugrekh wrote:

Aspect is something that English doesn't have

Strictly speaking English has only two tenses and everything else is a combination of tense (present or past), aspect (continuous, perfect) and mood (future tenses expressed by modal verbs will/shall etc., thus that's some irrealis mood). So English is perfect example of what aspect is. But we still study English by shitty, illogical 19th century methods and terminology, that's why English is considered harder language than it is.

6 Reply by lugrekh

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

Un4givenOrc wrote:

Strictly speaking English has only two tenses and everything else is a combination of tense (present or past), aspect (continuous, perfect) and mood (future tenses expressed by modal verbs will/shall etc., thus that's some irrealis mood). So English is perfect example of what aspect is. But we still study English by shitty, illogical 19th century methods and terminology, that's why English is considered harder language than it is.

Yeah. It's just not taught that way, so most people with English as their first language don't understand the concept of aspect. They only see it as tense. Fortunately I've had many years of experience with another conlang that only has aspect and no tense.

7 Reply by Un4givenOrc

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

lugrekh wrote:

Fortunately I've had many years of experience with another conlang that only has aspect and no tense

And what conlang is it?

8 Reply by lugrekh

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Re: Parsing verb suffixes and type 6 verb suffix - completeness

Un4givenOrc wrote:
lugrekh wrote:

Fortunately I've had many years of experience with another conlang that only has aspect and no tense

And what conlang is it?

tlhIngan Hol. I'm one of a very small handful of paid translators for Klingon. My work has been seen on TV (The Big Bang Theory), movies (Please Stand By), and, as of this fall, two stage plays (A Klingon Christmas Carol and It's an Honourable Life). It's probably one of the reasons I really like Black Speech as an agglutinative language and why I dislike using English grammar. big_smile

It has no tense markers at all, but 4 aspect suffixes that mark if the verb is in progress or complete, and if that action was done on purpose or not.