1 Topic by bjornaxen

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Topic: Evolution of BSS version of the LoS dialect

This is only my humble opinion.

You wrote "Сhanges were so huge that next one will probably break compatibility with Shadowlandian Black Speech and mark the birth of new dialect."

If you do break with LoS I suggest that you look into the verbal conjugation-system. The feature that the verbs have a special conjugation for the third person is a bit strange and really feels like a borrowing from English. It's is not a feature of any other languages that I have any knowledge on.

I would either simplify the system so it conjugates the same for all persons (like in e.g. Scandinavian languages). My proposal is then:

infinitive:-at (as in the Ring Inscription)
imperative: -Ø (null-ending)
Past tense: -az
Present: -aX (X= any consonant)
Future: -ub

The Svartiska system is really quite like it except for the past tense:
infinitive:-at (as in the Ring Inscription)
imperative: -Ø (null-ending)
Past tense: -ul
Present: -at
Future: -ub

Or you could construct a more complex system with different personal conjugation. Zhâburi marks the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs with difference suffixes, -u- being intransitive and -a- being transitive. E.g. thrak- > thrakag "bring something"; thrakug "bring one self/come".

The transitive then marks both subject and object (not obligatory) by different suffixes, e.g. thrakaganul "I bring it". The intransitive  marks both subject and object (because they are the same), e.g. thrakugul "he brings himself/he comes".

2 Reply by Un4givenOrc

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Re: Evolution of BSS version of the LoS dialect

I was thinking about adding special verb ending for other persons too, and changing duplicate meaning of -at suffix (replace 3rd person ending with some other). But most probably will make it similar to postpositions, which translate prepositions of usual Indo-European languages, but actually are noun case suffixes similar to Finno-Ugric languages. Maybe pronouns will be merged with verbs' person suffixes.
Also I'm planning to change plural suffix to distinct it from postposition meaning "to" and add something like perfect form of verbs, add some info into dictionary about some words usage (like expressions, special grammar forms, which preposition is used with verbs, etc.)
But main goal is to completely rewrite lessons, because now they are very inconsistent and contain more information in remarks then in core taken from Scatha's lessons.

However all this is on hold now (for several months or a year)

3 Reply by bjornaxen

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Re: Evolution of BSS version of the LoS dialect

Very interesting. That would really make it a different language/dialect. Do you have a name for it?

I suppose you'll keep the words. That's kind of like the situation I was in when I started with my Zhâburi-project. I just wanted the Svartiska to have a better grammar. I hadn't been content with it since the beginning. (It's great orc speech but not the black speech.) But then I started over and now it's connection to svartiska is nearly gone. I just made know pronouns and will soon publish new numbers. Then the connection will only be in some words.

When you speak of verbal perfect forms, do you mean like in germanic languages like English "I have done it" or more like Russian/slavic perfective-imperfect aspect system?

There is a perfect system in Svartiska based on the Swedish perfect with three different variants. I prefer #a.

“has spoken”

jab- "to speak/say"

a) Prefix: uga-
b) Circumfix: uga- | -at
c) uga preceeding the infinitive

a) ugajab
b) ugajabat
c) uga jabat

4 Reply by Un4givenOrc

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Re: Evolution of BSS version of the LoS dialect

There is no name yet.
Yes, dictionary will be mostly Shadowlandian/Horngoth, maybe I will replace some of dual-meaning and similar sounding words. Maybe I will create more strict rules of morphing words from Elvish languages into Black Speech (like transforming German "ss" into "t" in English - Wasser->water, heiss->hot, Hass->hatred etc).
Current tense system is close to Slavic, probably it will remain similar to it (actually the only thing left is Past Perfect). It will use suffix instead of auxiliary verb or prefix. By the way English tenses are quite differ from other Germanic languages.

5 Reply by bjornaxen

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Re: Evolution of BSS version of the LoS dialect

Yes English is quite different from german and Scandinavian, just want to keep it simple.

I use a set of rules on how to turn primitive elvish and etymology root to zhâburi words. I imagine a proto-orcish or first age orcish that developed from primitive elvish (PE) or even earlier (this urorcish constitutes the base vocabulary for Zhâburi B with additional loans from other Arda languages). There are different rules for initial, medial and final sounds. Such as:

nasal > voiced plosive: m > b; n > d; ng > g (inspired by bur(z) < MOR); and o > u
unvoiced plosive > unvoiced plosive: p > b; t > d; k > g (dur(b) < TUR)

I have about 70-80 of these rules depending on how to count them but the system is not fixed because I keep changing some of the rules. Only a few of them really follow from my "constructive" analysis so they depend on how think different words turn out.

I'm also working on a new set of derivative suffixes. I'm now slowly building a new vocabulary creating new words in this order:

1) looking for a PE word or etymological stem/root. If I find one I change it according to the rules.
2) looking for other arda languages mainly Valarin, Quenya or Adunaic more seldom Sindarin. I have different rules for different languages. For Quenya I try to find out what the PE word would look like.
3) Use a derivative suffix or combine two words
4) Use a word from Svartiska/LoS or Horngoth and adapts it to the phonological restrictions of Zhâburi

6 Reply by Un4givenOrc (edited by Un4givenOrc 2017-12-05 21:59:33)

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Re: Evolution of BSS version of the LoS dialect

It seems I'm going to distinct case postpositions (like of, by) and actual prepositions (across, beyond).

I've revisited my utility for phonetical analysis of dictionary (haven't run at least for 3 years) and discovered that Shadowlandian uses long vowels more often than it should (27% of all vowels against 17% of Tolkien's, 20% Svartiska, and 23% Horngoth).
All constructed dialects seems lacking of diphthongs (4.8-6.0% against 7.0% of Tolkien's).
However Tolkien set of words could not be considered representative