I started to write a creation myth – The Theology of Sauron

In the beginning there was Azgi (Nothingness, the Void) and then came Ashi (the One, Eru). A movement started within Ashi and Azhani (Ainur) came these Wills separated from Ashi and there were Azhani and Manashi (proto-substance). Azhani was manyfold and of different might and all had different goals and they started to form Manashi according to each own will. The mightiest of them, Mâghanashi (Melkor), rised above all other Azhan to bring order so that they may form Manashi according to one will and order. Many of Azhani flocked to Mâghanashi but more went against him and chief among these was Mânav (Manwë) who was almost equal in might with Mâghanashi.

https://zhaaburi.wordpress.com/2018/10/ … of-sauron/

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(8 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Interesting but not surprising. It shares some similarities with the Appleyard dialect.

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(5 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

So you are working on your own version of The Black Speech which you have mentioned before being inspired at least structurally by finno-ugric. I am really looking forward to see some of it.   

Yes creating categories can be a good way to create words and it suits the creation of a Black Speech because of it's engineering logic of language creation. I am working with categories as well but my first categories are languages of Arda. The first was of course Black Speech and Orich. Then Primitive Elvish -> Proto-orcish (or Angband Orcish as I call the version that I'm actually creating) then as you see Valarin and Adunaic. The Valarin word list made me concentrate on the topic of Ainur which I have been thinking on for a long time. I would really lika to have all the names in Valarin.

But I still like the organic approach to create The Black Speech even though a more machine like procedure would fit my idea of The Black Speech. My solution is to divide the words of the language in three parts: Those from Angband orcish, those of other ardalanguages and the "engineered" words.

One of my goals in creating Zhâburi is to find out how Sauron viewed the Creation of Arda and Melkor's place in it and so on. I thought that this could of interest here. Here is my (new) comment on my word list "names of Ainur".

Some of the names of Valar have Valarin forms and these are used for the Zhâburi form. The other names are just adapted from the Elvish names with the exeption of Melkor and Eru. Note that Zhâburi does not destinguish between higher Ainur such as Valar and Maiar nor Aratar – the higher Valar but instead all are included in ‘azhan’. If one wants to use these categories the Quenya words are used in the plural form (Zhâburi does not distinguish between singular and plural): Valar, Aratar;  Maiar (not *Mazhar). This is to mark out that these categories are part of another cosmological and philosophical paradigm.

The word ‘vala’ comes from the primitive elvish root BAL (Vala = Balan/Belain in Sindarin). In Quenya there is the word Máhan, a synonym for Aratar, adopted from Valarin ‘mâchanâz’ which becomes mâghan in Zhâburi but designate any high authority (of the Shadow) and not the Valar. Melkor is called Mâghanashi (the one authority) in Zhâburi (B). In Zhâburi (A) Eru was called Ashi (The One) but this is really just a translation from Quenya Eru with all its cosmological baggage. In Zhâburi (B) Eru is reduced by the name Manashi from a subject to an object with no agency; to a proto-substance with the potential of form. Thus the language indicates that Arda was formed by the Ainur (Azhani) led by Melkor, Mâghanashi, the supreme Ainu.

https://zhaaburi.wordpress.com/word-lists/

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(5 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Yes the names of Valar in Valarin are just names that cannot be further analysed except the ending long vowel -z. When I looked at my list of names again I noticed that Ulmo is Ulbôz from Ulubôz. A more coherent form would be Ulub and I think I will change it. Ulub is also analogous to konwn BS words such uruk, olog, oghor.

As for animals I would like it that most animal names comes from Angband orcish and then would the old dialect suffice as source material. But of course some names of animals could be adapted from other languages.

These are the words for animals in Adûnaic. I think there ought to be older orcish words. But as said I haven't decided yet
khâu, kêu    "cow"
narâk "eagle"
raba "dog",
rabô "dog", masculine 
rabê "bitch", feminine
urug "bear"
urgî "female bear"

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(5 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

I have now also added a list of words from Adûnaic. There are som words for families such as father, mother etc and for sailing

I have just published words of Ainur and from Valarin for Zhâburi (B). I thought it could be of interest

Here are some of the words
azhan "ainu" from Valarin 'ayanûz' (ainu) (I think this is the same as in Zhâburi A and if so published in the word list here)

Arûn    "Melkor, Morgoth" An Adûnaic name for Morgoth, perhaps coined by Sauron when he introduced the worship of the dark god to the Númenóreans, translated as “Lord” (Sauron Defeated: 376)

Maghanashi "Melkor, Morgoth", The One Authority

Maghani "Vala, Valar; the authority",From Valarin mâchanâz “authority”, not only applied to Valar

Manashi "Eru" The unique proto-form and substance “see ‘man’ under the Words from Valarin and ‘ashi’ individulizer

Mâron "Mairon (Sauron)" Phonetical adaption

You can find the lists here
https://zhaaburi.wordpress.com/word-lists

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(1 replies, posted in Site News)

Nice. But a note on the verbs of the Zhâburi A. I adapted them for these lists so that they could be used with the other dialects. Zhâburi (both A and B versions) have different verb-suffixes for transitive and intransitive functions for the verbs, -a- for transitive and -u- for intransitive. So the Zhâburi A verb stem bar- have different meanings depending on suffix; barut "to sit" (intransitive) and barat "to put (in place)" (transitive). But this makes it difficult to use the words in other dialects. So I used derivative suffixes to mark this difference so bar- "to put in place" (Swedish: att sätta) (transitive); barn- "to sit down" (Swedish "att sätta sig"); bart- "to sit [continously]" (Swedish "att sitta"). So if you are interested in Zhâburi A please consult me by writing a comment on my site:

https://zhaaburi.wordpress.com/zhaburi-a/

That's interesting but I think it's just a coincident.

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(13 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

jarn (n) MERP "iron", Swedish 'järn' (iron)

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(3 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Yes the allative of Finnish is more of upon but not in Quenya. From Ardalambion "The allative has the ending -nna, meaning "to", "into" or "upon". Both the ablative and the allative are exemplified in the words spoken by Elendil when he came to Middle-earth after the Downfall of Númenor, repeated by Aragorn at his coronation (LotR3/VI ch. 5): Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. "Out of [lit. out from] the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come" (Endor(e)-nna "Middle-earth-to"). The allative may also carry the meaning "upon"; cf. i falmalinnar "upon the foaming waves" in Namárië (-linnar being the ending for partitive plural allative; see below)."

In the two old lines of the Ring Verse in LoS the ûr-ending is used. Gakh Nazgu Golug-durub-uru lata-nu/Udu Gazat-shakh-uru ulub ruz-ishiz gund-ob. (Three rings for the elven kings under the sky/Seven for the drarflords in their halls of stone).

Mellonath Daeron have the dative in the their Quenya version of the text as well:

Cormar nelde Eldatárin nu Tarmenel,
Otso Herunaucoin hrótassen ondova,
Nerte Fírimoin martaine nurunen,
Er i More Herun mormahalmas hárala

Likewise the German and the Russian use dative
„Drei Ringe den Elbenkönigen hoch im Licht,
Sieben den Zwergenherrschern in ihren Hallen aus Stein,
Den Sterblichen, ewig dem Tode verfallen, neun,
Einer dem Dunklen Herrn auf dunklem Thron

премудрым эльфам/пещерным гномам / людям Средиземья/

In the Orc curse 'u' in "Uglúk u bagronk" is translated to "cesspool", "dung-pit", or "torture" and in all these cases the preposition u would correspond to the allative case in Quenya but not the dative case. This is of course not conclusive but if 'u' is the preferred postposition for dative then the ring verse should use it instead of -ûr. 

1. Gakh nazgu Golug-durub-u/ûr nut-lata
2. Udu Gazat-goth-u/ûr rûlub-ishiz gund-ob
3. Krith Tark-u/ûr matûrzu dûmpugaz matat
4. Ash Gothbûrz-u/ûr ulîmabûrz-tab-ir
5. Uzgbûrz-ishi amal burgûlu kâtut

The participles are taken directly from BSS.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gegenstän … _Eine_Ring
http://forodrim.org/daeron/md_corma.html

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(3 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

I've written a summary of LoS based on the Black Speech School variant. I've certainly misunderstood some things and there are certainly some mistakes and so on. You can find it on my Zhâburi-site

https://zhaaburi.wordpress.com/land-of- … ck-speech/

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(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

In lesson XIII on suffix order, verbs collective #6 two endings are given, -ûk and -âzh. The -âzh ending is used with a verb 'ufubulâzh' (will frighten them slightly). I cannot find this -âzh in the lessons or in the wordlists (there is "azh (conj, HORN) "also").

It seems to mean "slightly" but then it is not a collective. Confusing

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(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Yes of course I knew that

Interesting - scandinavian got 'torg' from old slavic

From Old Norse torg, from Old East Slavic търгъ (tŭrgŭ, “trade, trading, commerce; (trade) square”),[1] from Proto-Slavic *tъrgъ. Cognate with Danish torv and Swedish torg (“a city square”).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/torg#Etymology

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(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I saw that the word for market is quite similar to the Swedish word for square "torg" which of course is the place you have the market

trog - n  market  LOS, SV, MERP, HORN

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(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

There are two collective plural, -hai and -ûk. In contrast to the ordinary plural these can be used with people and races. So we have uruk-hai (the orc people) as the most famous example. And then in the lessons (IV) there is an example of the -ûk ending used with  sharkû (old man) > sharkûk "all old men". So both the collective plurals can be used with people and races but what is the difference between them. What does sharkû-hai mean "all the old people" or maybe "the society of old men" or is it equivalent to sharkûk? Or is it just gibberish.

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(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Does comparative and superlative adjectives, and adverbs mark plural?

The dark tower - lugbûrz; the darkest tower - lugbûrzaz; the darkest towers - lugbûrzazu

urukû ghâshuzat hîzarz lug "the old orc quickly burned the tower"; urukûz ghâshuzut hîzarzu lug "the old orcs quickly burned the tower"
---
edit 1. I saw that the adverb is not agreeing in number so: urukfuz ghâshuzut hîzarz lug
---
edit 2. I saw that I somehow confused the adjectives - this i now corrected.

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(4 replies, posted in Texts in Black Speech)

Kings, lords and men are pluralized in the lines that I started with and the version you posted so it seems to be a difficult rule.

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(4 replies, posted in Texts in Black Speech)

I looked on the Black Speech School’s lessons and realised that there is a queer rule that people and persons don’t take plural. In Zhâburi there is no plural at all. So the verse ought to be:

1. Gakh nazgu Golug-durub-ûr nut-lata
2. Udu Gazat-goth-ûr rûlub-ishiz gund-ob
3. Krith Tark-ûr matûrzu dûmpugaz matat
4. Ash Gothbûrz-ûr ulîmabûrz-tab-ir
5. Uzgbûrz-ishi amal burgûlu kâtut

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(1 replies, posted in Site Comments)

On alphabets it's  written "In all sources Black Speech is written in Roman alphabet". This is plainly wrong - the ring inscription is in tengwar.

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(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

The Svartiska words are coined by Swedes and j is pronounced as y in English "yes". In my experience this is very difficult for English native speakers to understand. I suggest to change every Svartiska j to y in the dictionary or publish a table with sound descriptions for the different dialects. I can provide you with a sound table.

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(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

On pronunciation

There is an orc name that begins with y - Yagul - in The War of the Ring (The History of Middle Earth, vol. 8 )

I think Tolkien pronounce Mordor in Elvish, it is after all an Elvish name meaning Black land in Sindarin (or "shadows" in Quenya). It has nothing to do with pronunciation of the Black Speech.

And what about the sounds in the excercise: -qu- in "throqu-" and sr- in "srinkh-"? Especially -qu- seems out of place. Why not spell it kv or kw?

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(1 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Inspired by Horngoth's orcish version of the conversation between Gorbag agh Shagrat I started to translate the original English to Orcish but run soon into trouble.

The first dialogue goes: "Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?"

It's the final sentence which is a question that I find problematic because I don't understand how that kind of question is formulated. In Svartiska it's quite easy because you can always use the question particle 'ur' to mark the sentence as a question.

"In questions the word order can be either the  reversed (as in Swedish). Ex. Gonat gur lat? “Do I see you?”or with with question particle ‘ur’. With ‘ur’ the word order can either be the normal SVO or the reversed VSO. Ex. Ur gur gonat lat? (“what/do” I  see you) or Ur gonat gur lat? (“what”/do see I you)." In my opinion it ought to the normal word order SVO.

So: Ur dok thlûk lat uga-ush? "what already enough you had-fight?" (You already had enough fight?).

The problem I have with the LoS-dialect is that there are several question words but none of them seems appropriate for this kind of question. Which of these question words are one supposed to use in this sentence.

Vocabulary – list of question words
what? - mash
when? -mukh
where? -mal
which? - mut
who?    - mirz
whose?- mirzob / mob
why?    - mat
how?- mol

In Horngoth the verb brus- "to have" and the sentence seems to depend on word order (a germanic speciality if I understand i correctly) and the lessons don't mention word order as a way to construct questions. So if we don't want word order to be the question marker then we need some kind of word for it.

The third sentence "What are you doing up here?" is problematic as well but it is more clear that that one ought to use "what? - mash?" Which gives us a sentence very similar to Horngoth "Mash krampug-lat sûr-tul." (what doing-you up-here).

Here I had a bit trouble figuring out how to construct "upp here" and I settled with a new adverb constructed by the two adverbs "sûr" and "tul" and joining them in the same order as in English.

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(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

It's written "pot" and yes it can be used that way - "za ti pot" (it is here).

Actually I'm translating the zhâburi A-list right now. My idea was to label it as Svartiska but maybe it's just easier to just list them as Zhâburi A. But that's up to you. I have some more words for Zhâburi A which are not on that list.

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(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I just noticed that a very common svartiska word is not glossed right in the dictionary. The word "pot" means "here" (Swedish "här") but when you put a verbal ending on it means "to come" - the rational is that when you act to come _here_. The imperative is "pot" which also means just "here". The dictionary seems to only have the verb meaning.