1

(9 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

ProgrezorUruk wrote:
Un4givenOrc wrote:

Привет и спасибо за отзыв!
Русско-орочий словарь уже есть на сайте, но он не обновлялся с 2011-го года (и не планируется в будущем). Можно его проредить от слов из Svartiska и MERP, но они там никак не помечены (единственное - слова из LOS выделены жирным), нужно сверяться с основным словарём. Также проблемой может быть синхронизация новых слов (планировал обновление словаря в этом месяце - пока откладывается), даты добавления я не ставлю. Системы контроля версий не подключал, да и сайты вроде гитхаба вроде не очень приветствуют файлы, не являющиеся программным кодом. Идеи по решению этого вопроса также приветствуются.

Думаю потому и не будет лишним попытаться составить все с нуля, основываясь на основном словаре. Труд, конечно, долгий и кропотливый, а времени у меня, студента, пока что не так уж и много, но думаю когда-нибудь я с этой задумкой совладаю. Ну а когда и если это произойдет, непременно дам тебе знать, если меня кто-нибудь не опередит)

Большая часть сайта была готова в мою бытность студентом (за несколько лет до открытия), по-моему золотое время для всяческих проектов, потом времени и энергии будет еще меньше.
Но сильно спешить не советую, так как я всё же замахнулся на создание нового диалекта вопреки нежеланию умножать раздробленность и путаницу. Словарь по большей части останется из LOS, но грамматику существенно поменяю.
Успехов!

2

(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

bjornaxen wrote:

n the lessons (IV) there is an example of the -ûk ending used with  sharkû (old man) > sharkûk "all old men". So both the collective plurals can be used with people and races but what is the difference between them. What does sharkû-hai mean "all the old people" or maybe "the society of old men" or is it equivalent to sharkûk? Or is it just gibberish.

I think it's Scatha's mistake.
I don't like interpretation of -hai as collective plural suffix nor simply as "folk", "people of" etc. However I can't offer better one.

bjornaxen wrote:

n lesson XIII on suffix order, verbs collective #6 two endings are given, -ûk and -âzh. The -âzh ending is used with a verb 'ufubulâzh' (will frighten them slightly). I cannot find this -âzh in the lessons or in the wordlists (there is "azh (conj, HORN) "also").

I've added this shortly before my HDD crashed. Online version of dictionary is not updated still.
Here -uuk and -aazh are something like verb's aspect (perfect and "partial" respectively). Interpretation of "-uuk" as "completely", "fully" is taken from A. Nemirovsky's analysis

3

(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

in Slavic languages "torg" is what happens at the market (translated as "trade")

4

(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I think adverbs do not have plural form. Adjectives do in any form

5

(4 replies, posted in Texts in Black Speech)

Thanks,
always forget about it myself )

6

(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

bjornaxen wrote:

And what about the sounds in the excercise: -qu- in "throqu-" and sr- in "srinkh-"?

Yes, there as some issues with qu, specially when next letter is also u. Could be also spelled like Q. It appears only in words borrowed from elvish languages. I will replace it with something else if I would create new dialect.

I think there is nothing special with sr, for me it's easier to say than thr (thrakatulat).

7

(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Maybe I will add a note to Lesson II - Sounds and Pronunciation. For me it was obvious
However I was in doubt about ch (should it be pronounced as in English or German). I found an answer at your pages

It seems I'm going to distinct case postpositions (like of, by) and actual prepositions (across, beyond).

I've revisited my utility for phonetical analysis of dictionary (haven't run at least for 3 years) and discovered that Shadowlandian uses long vowels more often than it should (27% of all vowels against 17% of Tolkien's, 20% Svartiska, and 23% Horngoth).
All constructed dialects seems lacking of diphthongs (4.8-6.0% against 7.0% of Tolkien's).
However Tolkien set of words could not be considered representative

9

(1 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Lesson XIV contains information about questions by The Land Of Shadow forum contributor Lugrekh.

"Had enough of war already?" - I think it's General question. Word order is SVO. LOS have similar question word "mar". It's supposed to be placed just before the verb, but I think it's not a strict rule.
Auxiliary verbs are not translated into Shadowlandian Black Speech. But in "Had enough..." it's not an auxiliary verb but an expression which hasn't got a translation. Also I've found translation for "already" in Horngoth only.
If we keep word-to-word translation then it should sound like "Mar brusuz(lat) thlûk mazauk-ob dok" in LOS:
(Lat) - omitted as "You" in English, can also be placed after verb's tense suffix
Mar - question word
brusuz - past tense of "have"
thlûk - enough
mazauk-ob - of war
dok - already (in Horngoth dialect)

Maybe word order for "up here" translation should be like "here-up"

10

(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I'm looking through Utumno's Black Speech brochure, and it contains a lot of words absent in my dictionaries. Should I consider them Svartiska or Zhaaburi A?

11

(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Is it written just "pot" or with long vowel ("pôt") as in my dictionary?
Can it be used in expressions like "it is here"?

There is no name yet.
Yes, dictionary will be mostly Shadowlandian/Horngoth, maybe I will replace some of dual-meaning and similar sounding words. Maybe I will create more strict rules of morphing words from Elvish languages into Black Speech (like transforming German "ss" into "t" in English - Wasser->water, heiss->hot, Hass->hatred etc).
Current tense system is close to Slavic, probably it will remain similar to it (actually the only thing left is Past Perfect). It will use suffix instead of auxiliary verb or prefix. By the way English tenses are quite differ from other Germanic languages.

I was thinking about adding special verb ending for other persons too, and changing duplicate meaning of -at suffix (replace 3rd person ending with some other). But most probably will make it similar to postpositions, which translate prepositions of usual Indo-European languages, but actually are noun case suffixes similar to Finno-Ugric languages. Maybe pronouns will be merged with verbs' person suffixes.
Also I'm planning to change plural suffix to distinct it from postposition meaning "to" and add something like perfect form of verbs, add some info into dictionary about some words usage (like expressions, special grammar forms, which preposition is used with verbs, etc.)
But main goal is to completely rewrite lessons, because now they are very inconsistent and contain more information in remarks then in core taken from Scatha's lessons.

However all this is on hold now (for several months or a year)

14

(6 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Yes, I'm speaking about derivational affixes which modifies only word's meaning. I'm for using only suffixes for inflection.

I have never noticed prefix ga- before. There are very few words starting with ga- in Svartiska dictionary, so I'm wondering what does it mean?

15

(0 replies, posted in Remarks And Suggestions)

If you are receiving spam in private messages please resend it to me as PM or just complain about username in this topic

16

(6 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

By the way, what do you think about such prefixes like:
de- (meaning "separating", "dividing", "splitting", like yours depart, decompose, demolish etc.);
en- (meaning "in", as in encounter, entrance);
re- (mean. "back", "again" etc., like re-invent, resemble, retire etc.);

should there be prefixes in Black Speech too, or should they be translated as postpositions?

17

(9 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Привет и спасибо за отзыв!
Русско-орочий словарь уже есть на сайте, но он не обновлялся с 2011-го года (и не планируется в будущем). Можно его проредить от слов из Svartiska и MERP, но они там никак не помечены (единственное - слова из LOS выделены жирным), нужно сверяться с основным словарём. Также проблемой может быть синхронизация новых слов (планировал обновление словаря в этом месяце - пока откладывается), даты добавления я не ставлю. Системы контроля версий не подключал, да и сайты вроде гитхаба вроде не очень приветствуют файлы, не являющиеся программным кодом. Идеи по решению этого вопроса также приветствуются.

18

(0 replies, posted in Site News)

Lessons VII (Prepositions) and XIII (Suffix order) were heavily modified. Many others were supplied with additional notes (specially Lessons III, IV and X). Сhanges were so huge that next one will probably break compatibility with Shadowlandian Black Speech and mark the birth of new dialect.

Урок VII (Предлоги) и XIII (Порядок суффиксов) были сильно изменены. Многие другие (особенно Уроки III, IV и X) были дополнены комментариями. Изменения были настолько обширными, что, возможно, следующее крупное дополнение сломает совместимость с LOS, и станет рождением нового диалекта.

19

(9 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

How could I forgot this?

doraz (LOS, SV, MERP) gates < obviously from English "doors"

20

(4 replies, posted in Texts in Black Speech)

It's a shame that is was not translated into proper Shadowlandian by it's author.
Approach by Björn Axén

Here is mine for starting 5 rows:

Gakh nazgu Golug-durub-ûru nut-lata
Udu Gazat-goth-ûru ru-ulub-ishiz* gund-ob
Krith Tark/Shara-ûru matûrzu dûmpugaz matat
Ash Gothbûrz-ûr ulîma(bûrz)-tab-ir
Uzg-ishi Mordor-ob amal burgûlu kâtut

* "ru-ulub-ishiz" should be transformed into "rûlub-ishiz"
** Actually Mordor is translated as Dark Land, maybe "Uzgbûrz-ishi amal burgûlu kâtut" is better

21

(4 replies, posted in Texts in Black Speech)

English original:

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie

Here is full ring verse translation “by `Elerrina’ with full analysis in Quettar #16 pp6-7; included without analysis (and `duumpuga’ replaced by `duumpaga’) by Jorge Quinonez in a collection of Ring-verse translations in `Vinyar Tengwar’#13 pp13-15)”.
Some invented words were used by A. Appleyard and then slightly modified by Scatha for creating her Shadowlandian Black Speech.

Gakh Nazgi Ilid/Albai/Golug – durub-uuri lata-nuut.
Udu takob-ishiz gund-ob Gazat-shakh-uuri.
Krith Shara-uuri matuurz matat duumpuga.
Ash tug Shakhbuurz-uur Uliima-tab-ishi za,
Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.
Ash nazg durbatulûk
ash nazg gimbatul
ash nazg thrakatulûk
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli

22

(9 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

-lob (LOS) female-, she- < taken from Shelob as female suffix, but "Shelob" is just "she-web" in Old English. So, meaning is not the same, but it makes this borrowing from real language more stupid

hag, haglob (LOS) unpleasant man, woman  < from English "hag" (witch, old woman)
tere (SV) earth, ground, soil < Latin "terra"

23

(1 replies, posted in Remarks And Suggestions)

bjornaxen wrote:

I could not find a LoS-version of the Ring Verse so I wrote one myself

I believe I saw it somewhere, but now it seems unavailable. It was based on Elerrina's translation, which used -i suffix for plurals

I've found only some other fans' translations

24

(6 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

I will move this topic to "Black Speech talks" section 'cause it already has some words offerings.

"okh" also similar to MERP's "okat" (to crawl), that's nice!
"gât-" already meaning "punish" in Svartiska, confusing a little

25

(9 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Thanks!
Therefore "gul" will be also conneted to German "gelb" and much less obvious to English "yellow". I think this word appeared in dictionaries by mistake during translations and rewritings.
As for "fugul", it's actually written as "fulug", so I haven't noticed a similarity. Compare also with Quenya's "filik", so I will not mark it as "deprecated" word yet.