(5 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Grouping words in categories is good and natural idea while creating new language.
For my new dialect I split Swadesh 200+ list in categories: Pronouns, Conjugation & participles & prepositions, Numbers, Adjectives (quantity, size, colors and other), Persons & relatives, animals, plants, parts of body & organs, verbs, cosmic objects (like Moon and Sun), terrain types & objects, weather & fall-outs, fire, time & seasons. Then I expanded this list a little bit in each category.

The next step is to translate elvish, mannish, dwarven etc. names for Arda-specific geographical terms (specially places of Mordor), names of races, creatures, animals and plants.

Next are the words for orcish (or just dark) way of life (kill & destroy). However there are already plenty of them in Svartiska. Which brings names of weapons and armor, and then names of crafting materials (specially lacking words for metals), technological processes (casting, melting, forging, hardening etc.), cooking (speacially meat in field conditions), names for professions etc. Words for killing & destroying also brings us more terms in anatomy and parts of body.

Then goes roleplay terms from LARP to D&D.
The last step will be dialectical words for Orcs from different regions (Mordor, Moria)

Each step leads to word-making process in other categories.

I hope this approach will make dictionary small but vivid and is better than trying to translate some random assorted texts. Perfection will be achieved when we will be able to translate dialogues from LOTR without much simplification (like Shagrat and Gorbag conversations on Horngoth's page).


(8 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I've found a forum post by Adragoor stating that Trenne Byar's Svartiska was a "rip-off". Therefore Svartiska is even older than from 1994


(5 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

You said that "The problematic part of transferring words from Valarin to Zhâburi is the length of Valarin words which are mostly (all?) have several syllables and because many of them are compound words it’s difficult to decide where to cut them."
But other problem is strong phonetic difference between these languages.

So a lot of imagination is required to transform Valarin into Black Speech-like words. Some valar names in your list still sound like Valarin.

As for Adunaic, BS has lack of words for animals and birds. And those existing look stupid with "-bork" suffix in almost every of them, therefore some borrowing is not a bad thing in this case


(1 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Not an exact translation ("we are changed") would be:
bhadûruga-izgu or izgu bhadûruga (pure Shadowlandian)
izgu bhadûrag (current version of dialect here)


(0 replies, posted in Site News)

Since A. Appleyard's Black Speech analysis became unreadable because it had lost file extension on it's host and was treated as HTML instead of raw text, I've decided to make a readable copy here at my site. View it.

Так как анализ Черной Речи от A. Appleyard'а стал нечитаемым из-за потери расширения файла на сервере, и трактовался как HTML вместо сырого текста, я решил сделать читаемую копию на своем сайте. Посмотреть.


(1 replies, posted in Site News)

The Dictionary now features Zhâburi A dialect. And of course it was  filled with some new words too. Lessons were also corrected.
It was discovered that Online Dictionary was not functioning properly for a long time. All issues were fixed.

В Словаре теперь представлен диалект Zhâburi A. Конечно же, были добавлены и другие новые слова. Также внесены правки к некоторым Урокам.
Было обнаружено, что Онлайн-словарь работал некорректно уже очень долгое время (например поиск на русском выдавал перевод на английский). Все ошибки были устранены.


(13 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

jabatâr (n) SV "talker", "snitch" < this one is interesting, while it is formed from Svartiska "jab-" (to speak) this derivative resembles Russian "yabeda" with exact meaning "snitch". However Russian word is also borrowed from Icelandic "embaetti" or German "Amt" with approximate meanings "post" (not mail), "office", "appointment", "official person", "officer" etc.
So "jabatar" could not be considered a borrowed word but opens interesting etymology.


(3 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Obviously in Shadowlandian "-u" is just direct translation of "to" and "-uur" of "for". Also Russian translation of orc curse use Prepositional case (which can function as Allative) for "u". So I had to agree with you. On the other hand replacing "uur" with "u" will not change the meaning in the Ring Verse.
I will not modify the table, but keep this in mind for my planned new dialect.


(3 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Number 28 –u (to, towards) is clearly from the Orc Curse ‘u bagronk‘ where it means “to” it is here stated to function as an indirect object (dative) as a postposition. But we also have number 31 –ûr (for) which looks more like a proper dative marker to me. The –ûr ending is also used in the Ring Verse as a marker of indirect object and incidentally is the dative case in Svartiska. Instead the –u ending seems to correspond to an allative case such in Quenya meaning to

I disagree on this. Allative case assumes English equivalent "onto". If we'll consider literal translation of term "Dative", the main usage will be in expressions like "give/bring something to". This meaning is common for all languages with Dative case, while both translations of "for" (purpose and duration of time) are used with Genitive in Russian. Hungarian has separate case for it.
Anyway original Shadowlandian states "there are no cases".

As for Participles, "-ug" and "-uga" are enough for overview article. I'm not sure I made other participles well. The same for gerund.
-arz for Adverbs is not my invention. It just wasn't described in original lessons (but was present in the list of suffixes and few words in dictionary).
Questions were also described on The Land of Shadow forum.


(13 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

skessa (all) ugly woman, female troll < Icelandic "ogress"


(9 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

ProgrezorUruk wrote:
Un4givenOrc wrote:

Привет и спасибо за отзыв!
Русско-орочий словарь уже есть на сайте, но он не обновлялся с 2011-го года (и не планируется в будущем). Можно его проредить от слов из Svartiska и MERP, но они там никак не помечены (единственное - слова из LOS выделены жирным), нужно сверяться с основным словарём. Также проблемой может быть синхронизация новых слов (планировал обновление словаря в этом месяце - пока откладывается), даты добавления я не ставлю. Системы контроля версий не подключал, да и сайты вроде гитхаба вроде не очень приветствуют файлы, не являющиеся программным кодом. Идеи по решению этого вопроса также приветствуются.

Думаю потому и не будет лишним попытаться составить все с нуля, основываясь на основном словаре. Труд, конечно, долгий и кропотливый, а времени у меня, студента, пока что не так уж и много, но думаю когда-нибудь я с этой задумкой совладаю. Ну а когда и если это произойдет, непременно дам тебе знать, если меня кто-нибудь не опередит)

Большая часть сайта была готова в мою бытность студентом (за несколько лет до открытия), по-моему золотое время для всяческих проектов, потом времени и энергии будет еще меньше.
Но сильно спешить не советую, так как я всё же замахнулся на создание нового диалекта вопреки нежеланию умножать раздробленность и путаницу. Словарь по большей части останется из LOS, но грамматику существенно поменяю.


(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

bjornaxen wrote:

n the lessons (IV) there is an example of the -ûk ending used with  sharkû (old man) > sharkûk "all old men". So both the collective plurals can be used with people and races but what is the difference between them. What does sharkû-hai mean "all the old people" or maybe "the society of old men" or is it equivalent to sharkûk? Or is it just gibberish.

I think it's Scatha's mistake.
I don't like interpretation of -hai as collective plural suffix nor simply as "folk", "people of" etc. However I can't offer better one.

bjornaxen wrote:

n lesson XIII on suffix order, verbs collective #6 two endings are given, -ûk and -âzh. The -âzh ending is used with a verb 'ufubulâzh' (will frighten them slightly). I cannot find this -âzh in the lessons or in the wordlists (there is "azh (conj, HORN) "also").

I've added this shortly before my HDD crashed. Online version of dictionary is not updated still.
Here -uuk and -aazh are something like verb's aspect (perfect and "partial" respectively). Interpretation of "-uuk" as "completely", "fully" is taken from A. Nemirovsky's analysis


(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

in Slavic languages "torg" is what happens at the market (translated as "trade")


(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I think adverbs do not have plural form. Adjectives do in any form


(4 replies, posted in Texts in Black Speech)

always forget about it myself )


(9 replies, posted in Site Comments)

bjornaxen wrote:

And what about the sounds in the excercise: -qu- in "throqu-" and sr- in "srinkh-"?

Yes, there as some issues with qu, specially when next letter is also u. Could be also spelled like Q. It appears only in words borrowed from elvish languages. I will replace it with something else if I would create new dialect.

I think there is nothing special with sr, for me it's easier to say than thr (thrakatulat).


(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Maybe I will add a note to Lesson II - Sounds and Pronunciation. For me it was obvious
However I was in doubt about ch (should it be pronounced as in English or German). I found an answer at your pages

It seems I'm going to distinct case postpositions (like of, by) and actual prepositions (across, beyond).

I've revisited my utility for phonetical analysis of dictionary (haven't run at least for 3 years) and discovered that Shadowlandian uses long vowels more often than it should (27% of all vowels against 17% of Tolkien's, 20% Svartiska, and 23% Horngoth).
All constructed dialects seems lacking of diphthongs (4.8-6.0% against 7.0% of Tolkien's).
However Tolkien set of words could not be considered representative


(1 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Lesson XIV contains information about questions by The Land Of Shadow forum contributor Lugrekh.

"Had enough of war already?" - I think it's General question. Word order is SVO. LOS have similar question word "mar". It's supposed to be placed just before the verb, but I think it's not a strict rule.
Auxiliary verbs are not translated into Shadowlandian Black Speech. But in "Had enough..." it's not an auxiliary verb but an expression which hasn't got a translation. Also I've found translation for "already" in Horngoth only.
If we keep word-to-word translation then it should sound like "Mar brusuz(lat) thlûk mazauk-ob dok" in LOS:
(Lat) - omitted as "You" in English, can also be placed after verb's tense suffix
Mar - question word
brusuz - past tense of "have"
thlûk - enough
mazauk-ob - of war
dok - already (in Horngoth dialect)

Maybe word order for "up here" translation should be like "here-up"


(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

I'm looking through Utumno's Black Speech brochure, and it contains a lot of words absent in my dictionaries. Should I consider them Svartiska or Zhaaburi A?


(15 replies, posted in Site Comments)

Is it written just "pot" or with long vowel ("pôt") as in my dictionary?
Can it be used in expressions like "it is here"?

There is no name yet.
Yes, dictionary will be mostly Shadowlandian/Horngoth, maybe I will replace some of dual-meaning and similar sounding words. Maybe I will create more strict rules of morphing words from Elvish languages into Black Speech (like transforming German "ss" into "t" in English - Wasser->water, heiss->hot, Hass->hatred etc).
Current tense system is close to Slavic, probably it will remain similar to it (actually the only thing left is Past Perfect). It will use suffix instead of auxiliary verb or prefix. By the way English tenses are quite differ from other Germanic languages.

I was thinking about adding special verb ending for other persons too, and changing duplicate meaning of -at suffix (replace 3rd person ending with some other). But most probably will make it similar to postpositions, which translate prepositions of usual Indo-European languages, but actually are noun case suffixes similar to Finno-Ugric languages. Maybe pronouns will be merged with verbs' person suffixes.
Also I'm planning to change plural suffix to distinct it from postposition meaning "to" and add something like perfect form of verbs, add some info into dictionary about some words usage (like expressions, special grammar forms, which preposition is used with verbs, etc.)
But main goal is to completely rewrite lessons, because now they are very inconsistent and contain more information in remarks then in core taken from Scatha's lessons.

However all this is on hold now (for several months or a year)


(6 replies, posted in Black Speech talks)

Yes, I'm speaking about derivational affixes which modifies only word's meaning. I'm for using only suffixes for inflection.

I have never noticed prefix ga- before. There are very few words starting with ga- in Svartiska dictionary, so I'm wondering what does it mean?


(0 replies, posted in Remarks And Suggestions)

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